I’m too enraged to write anything coherent, but beginning yesterday, I’m running my own private boycott of the state of Israel and anything/-one associated with it, and I urge everyone to do the same.
A fascist, belligerent regime is not justifiable by any past, no matter how cruel and injust it has been. A rotten childhood does not justify being an asshole.
At the same time, I lament my own belated reaction: why is it that Israel may kill thousands of semi-dark-skinned Achmeds and Muhammeds without anyone raising a brow, but when a couple of Swedish authors are drawn physically into the firing line, the world gets on its feet?
It’s sickening.
Update: When news of the cultural boycott was publicized on an Israeli news site, the comment section virtually exploded. I decided that it was probably a good idea to turn off automatic publication of comments. I’ve now gone through the whole thing, and decided to let it all through. It’s not pretty, but quite interesting.
One correction of terminology: In one of the comments, I refer to the soldiers who boarded the Flotilla as “pirates”. I’ve learned that piracy is not the correct term, since that only applies to civilians acting on their own behalf. Since this was a nation’s armed forces, who acted on behalf of their country, the correct term is “an illegal act of war”. Changing the terminology may change the associations the words bring with them, but it does not change the contents of the statement.
Hi Eyolf,
I could not agree more fully. The incredible thing is that, as I’m sure you are all too aware, ‘Neighborhood Bully’ was written in support of Israel. The song argues that Israel has not received recognition for all the hard work it does, standing up with force for what is right. A jarring false-step for Dylan that must surely haunt him to this day, given how the song has been used since he wrote it.
Thank you for an awesome website.
David
This thread is now officially closed.
However, I have to take issue with one of the comments which I missed in the general confusion, because it does great unjustice to someone else. It has to do with this comment, referring, as proof of my antisemitism, to an article in one of the books I’ve been an editor of.
The article is written by Richard Utz of Western Michigan University, a scholar of the highest moral and intellectual standard.
The article studies the accusations — entirely fictional — that were frequently directed against Jews in the Middle Ages, that they performed ritual murder of non-Jews and used the victims’ blood for ritual purposes. But most importantly, it discusses how these racist narratives are still used today in antisemitic propaganda (quoting, e.g., a scholar from King Faisal University, writing in the the leading Saudi government daily in 2002: “the Jews’ spilling of human blood to prepare pastry for their holidays is a well-established fact, historically and legally, all throughout history”), and presents this as a (much needed) challenge to the scholarly world: to take issue not only with the outrageous wrongdoings of the past, but also with their incarnations in the present. The article ends:
This is a conclusion I stand by wholeheartedly.
Gotta disagree here. Maybe it is because I am German. But how is Israel killing thousands?
And really, how is trying to smuggle stuff being “drawn into the firing line.”? Even the organizers of that ship-thing say it isn’t about helping the people of Gaza — which makes sense, since they get plenty of goods anyway, by land.
To me, the most sickening thing is that the parents of Gilad Shahid offered to persuade the Israeli government to let the ships through (together with whatever is on board, uncontrolled), if only they can send a few _freaking letters_ to their son. The answer was negative. Talk about human rights activists!
Right, how dare the IDF defend themselves against some ships who refuse to be searched and attack IDF troops when boarded.
It’s an outrage.
Now, it’s ok that Hamas sends missles into Sderot and kills schoolchildren, those goddamn Israeli children.
There is no room for interpretation here.
In international waters a flotilla full of humanitarian aid and unarmed civialians was boarded by members of the fourth largest army in the world. Crew members armed with deck furniture and cutlery were murdered by highly-trained soldiers with guns.
No matter how you justify Israel’s terrorising of Palestinian civilians (maybe you can call Palestinian men, women and children “Hamas”) that is not the issue here. This was a blow against all peaceful protestors.
Zionism is racism.
Oisín,
I am afraid you are somewhat mistaken. Had you listened to Bob Dylan’s Theme Time Radio Hour season 1, episode 33, you’d know that “the seven largest armies in the world are: China, India, North Korea, South Koria, Pakistan, USA and Vietnam”.
Also, as I said before: This “flotilla” had nothing to do with humanitarian aid. Even its organizers acknowledged that. And you cannot possibly be serious about “deck furniture and cutlery”. Haven’t you seen the videos of that incident? I wouldn’t call the IHH people civilians either, but that may be a different story.
Thirdly, the international waters. I am not sure about the international law here, some say this, others that. But this cannot be be main issue: These ships had the clear intention of moving into Israeli waters. Would anyones take on what happened change if Israel had waited a few more hours? The Israelis had radio contact with these ships and offered to let them deliver their goods (at least the non-military part of it) by land. They declined, because they hoped for a media story like this.
And what is it with accusing Israel of terrorising Palestinian civilians and then saying this is not the issue? That’s kind of a backstabbing way of arguing. I cannot help but feel that “antizionism” is just plain old antisemitism. Where is the moral fervor when people die without any Jews around?
Eh… how Israel is killing thousands? Well, directly, with guns and helicopters, but even more so indirectly, through a blockade which is not only dubious by international standards and therefore condemned by the UN and most of the international society (the USA, of course, being the exception), but which also, and more importantly, makes living conditions for the people in Gaza even more difficult than they were before (and dying conditions favourable).
Sadly, if stupidity is repeated often enough, people will start to believe there is something to it. Where did you get the idea that it was not a humanitarian action? And that even the organizers acknowledge that? Holy crap. Nobody would claim that it’s only about the food and construction materials. Sadly, a dead Palestinian is less visible than a resourceful North European. It’s also about pressurizing to bring this example of state terrorism to an end, through international opinion, and there, a whitie weighs a million times heavier than a semite, especially a Palestinian one.
That has been openly acknowledged by the organizers, but to claim that it’s not humanitarian is either disrespectful or stupid, or both.
“They get plenty of goods anyway, by land”? No they don’t. According to the UN, the supplies that Israel lets through is 1/4 of what is needeed. “Mass unemployment, extreme poverty, food insecurity and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid,” according to the Amnesty International.
The insinuation that the shipment had a military purpose is again rhetorical stupidity. Rhetorical by conveying a message in a roundabout manner (by alluding to the “non-military” part of the delivery; this is the “Have you stopped beating your wife?” line of argumentation); and stupid by swallowing the rhetorics of others without thinking. Israel prevents cement and other building materials from reaching Gaza, claiming that they will be used to make smuggling tunnels for explosives and arms. The convoy contained cement. Does that make it a military expedition? Would Israel have let it through the inspection that they so generously offered? How does one (re-)establish an infrastructure — and one that allows people who have been living in occupation and war all their lives to break out of the “You beat me, I beat you” kind of logic — without the basics of food and a roof over one’s head?
Also, there is no dispute of the “international waters” issue. It’s not “some say this, some say that”. Israel, the day before the attack, unilaterally claimed a 68-mile “security zone”, effect immediate. Israel boarded ships in international waters with no other justification than their own. Period. Stop polluting the discussion with inanities, please.
For the record, I’d like to see Hamas in an even hotter hell than where they currently are; I wish the people of Gaza had chosen their leaders more wisely, and I think it would be a wise thing for them to stop firing their home-made tin-can grenades over the border. Swedish columnist Wolfgang Hansson expresses it quite precisely: “With enemies like Israel, Hamas doesn’t need any friends.” That doesn’t mean that the people of Gaza couldn’t need a helping hand.
Hi,
I originally came to this site for reading about latex, but came across this post and I had to reply because, well, I’m an Israeli.
First of, Israel is a democracy, and the only one here in the middle east (so no, not a ‘fascist belligerent regime’).
About people being killed- well, unfortunately thousands of Israelis have been killed in terror attacks too. While the Paletinian terrorists aim mostly against civilian targets, Israel tries to target mainly terrorist, which more often than not use civilians as a protective shield.
The blockade itself hasn’t existed before Hamas took over Gaza- a regime that denies Israel’s right to exist and directly attacks it’s civilians (including my house) with rockets. There is no blockade on the Western territory which is under the Palestinian authority rule. In addition, Gaza shares a border with Egypt which is not under any Israeli control- but the Egyptians themselves close the border because fear of terrorist activity around the borders.
On the issue of legality, IANAL , but according -http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/57JMSU (section V) the IDF actions were well justified, international waters or not. The fact that only 9 Jihad activist (not peace mind you- when you’re trying to hit someone with a large metal pole or throw him off a deck, peace is the last thing on your mind) are proof to the IDF soldiers restraint.
Again, the blockade exists because of Israel’s security needs. Once the citizens of Gaza throw of this terrorist Hamas regime, it will be better for all of us.
There we go again. Notwithstanding your claim that Israel is killing thousands with guns and helicopters: Do you really think thousands of people in Gaza die because of the blockade? The inhabitants of the Gaza Strip receive more international aid per capita than any population on this planet. They receive enough to be able to reject the load of these ships, when Israel brought them by land. They receive enough to be able to have Restaurants like this. Do an image search of “gaza market” to see more about the dire situation in this “open air concentration camp”. Of course they are entitled to all the wealth they can get, but … killing thousands? Is Egypt killing at least a few hundred then?
I am not trying to be disrespectful or stupid, and there is no need for such ad hominem attacks.
“Breaking the siege” was a more important goal to the “Free Gaza” organizers than giving supplies to the people of Gaza. This was acknowledged, by words, and, much louder, by actions. I cannot regard this as a humanitarian action. Unless you count general political action to better the lot of some people as “humanitarian action”, but then you’d have to include Israel’s blockade itself as an humanitarian action …
It is sad to say and may come off as stupid indeed, but I don’t believe the UN or AI could be regarded as trustworthy with regards to the middle east conflict. Both organizations are not neutral, although maybe for different reasons. Organizations like AI love the middle east for some reason and send so many “helpers” there that they’ll soon begin to stand on each other’s feet. (Compare this with some region that’s really in need of help, e.g. Ruanda or North Korea (read that link only if you don’t want to eat for the rest of the day.
As for the controlling of material that could (would?) be used to attack Israel: I seem to share Joe Biden’s take on that. Although I don’t know whether that rids me of the “rhetorical stupidity” label. But actually I think the real purpose of this undertaking was to create a media scandal like we have one now. Please note, for instance, how fast the Hamas web site has responded, even making fun of the Fatah media for not talking about the incident for a couple of hours. (I don’t have an English link for that ATM, but try some googling.) This fits together well with the fact that the shipload itself does not seem to be too interesting to the Hamas government and that the humanitarian sailors refused to take the secure although unspectacular land route offered by Israel.
International waters: Yes, it happened in international waters. Does that change your judgement of the incident? If so, google “Helsinki principles on the law of maritime neutrality”. For instance, here. I don’t know anything about that, this is why I said a read conflicting statements about this.
The people of Gaza could use a helping hand indeed. I am not saying was Israel did here was clever or advisable. But way is complaining about Israel so much more sexy then complaining about the real evildoers of the world? That’s not a rhetorical question — I find it really astonishing. And I cannot help but feel this has something to do with there being Jews involved. At least this is a parsimonious rule for predicting attention of human suffering.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.” Albert Einstein
What we are seeing in this blog on this topic is the dialectic arguements that have been pervasive in the “Jewish State” / “Palestinian problem” for the last century.
We have displaced and persecuted people on both sides of the arguement. The state of Isreal is the manifestation of colonisation by displaced and persecuted people. How have they manifested the state? They have used the displacement and persecution of others, the Palestinians. The consiousness that has manifested the state is the consiousness created by centuries of persecution and displacement and these processes and thought patterns dominate the actions of the state.
Isreal is not a democracy for the peoples it governs. It is governing/conntrolling the lives of millions who have now vote or say in how that power is exercised. They are teaching generations of palestinians that power comes from the barrell of gun and perpetuating the very conciousness from which they seek salvation.
A “Jewish” state is abhorant as an “Islamist” or “Christian” state. governemnt and nation if this is how we define geographic distribution must be inclusive and plural. The “Christian” state of the USA imprisons more persons than any other in the world by any statistical measure; these state captured slaves power the economies of regions with “free” or slave labour.
End dogma.
I live in country where for almost two centuries the state has perpetrated, consciously or not, genocide on its indigenous people. Until we understand and value all of the beliefs, purposes and desires of our people we will not move forward.
Reconcilaition is a slow process and a conscious activity. Sadly the leaders of Isreal and Palistine, and many governments and organistions fear change and cling to either a misconcived past oran unrealistic/unachievable future. We need to create the future and the success of the future will not come from clinging to the consioucness of the past.
Who is right and who is wrong is far less importantquestion than what can we do better.
@greg:
“Isreal is not a democracy for the peoples it governs. It is governing/conntrolling the lives of millions who have now vote or say in how that power is exercised.
A “Jewish” state is abhorant as an “Islamist” or “Christian” state”
Sorry, Israel does not govern Gaza or the West bank and has no territorial claims over palestinian governed cities. The Arab minority in Israel recieves equal and full citizen rights.
The term “Jewish state” refers to the Jewish (Hebrew) nation, and not to the religion, but I see how the term might be confusing. Just as Denmark is the homelandof the Danish people, Israel is the Homeland of the Jewish (Hebrew) people.
Israel does not “persecute” Palestinians, and this conflict did not arise because of some weird psychological issues. this is a war, unfortunately.
I totally agree with your last sentence, of course.
What astonished me personally was the fashion in which the entire event was immediately abstracted; almost overnight, the attack on the Freedom Flotilla transformed from a “real” historical event to what a neurolinguist might call an Actor, perhaps an Ideology. As this thread has already shown, the sympathizers have already discerned the “true meaning” of the attack, the “true meaning” of the flotilla’s mission, the “true meaning” of Israel and it’s place in the Middle East; they have pierced to the dark heart of the matter and now they know the Truth, and they know the Truth because – as they have demonstrated – the “true meaning” of the event is unattainable without the “correct” contextualization. Taken on it’s own, the historical event was a plain and banal horror – a ship in international waters headed towards a sovereign state crewed by an international humanitarian society was boarded by armed gunmen, the crew defended themselves with chairs and cutlery and iron bars, the gunmen opened fire.
With the correct context, though, ah… it’s a different story…
Overnight, “the Real became the Image, and the Image was imbued Realness.” The forces will continue to post meaningless and grainy footage all over Youtube, there will be squabbling over doctoring and there will be squabbling over freeze-frames – in the end, though, it will be pointless. The event has transcended itself. Undoubtedly there will be responses to this post, and those responses will be loud – louder than I could ever be – and I have taken a quote from heiner’s post,
“And I cannot help but feel this has something to do with there being Jews involved.”
And so it begins.
Like picking a fresh apple from a bough, biting into it and finding that it is wax. Then chewing, relishing the taste and saying, “Wow. Best apple ever.”
I love the site, Eyolf.
@Heiner: Thanks for proving my point so eloquently. The restaurant that you link to is the one that the Israeli government press office produced the week before the assault on Ship to Gaza to prove that there is no shortage of food in Gaza. The menu they “cited” from has was a fake, but you have more trust in it than in the AI and the UN. Sigh.
to Oren,
I am happy that we have some agreement. What can be done better, to make things better? What does Oren as an Isreali do to make things better?
All countires have their own pathologies. I live in country that was subjected to invasion and occupation by British Colonial Imperialism. At school I was taught a history that spoke of discovery and pioneering settlement. As a child in my family I was told of the struggles of my Irish ancestors and the discrimantion and persecution they suffered even as a powerless majority of the population in both colonial and modern Australia; it is only my generation (born late sixties) that has transended (or is oblovious) to these class/religious demograhic battles and bigotry.
As a young adult I learned of the war/s that occured at the time of invasion and occupation. As a nation Australia has moved slowly toward reconciliation with its indigenous peoples, listening to and valuing their stories. This path has been met with much resistance, even a recent Prime Minister who refused to recognise the history of invasion that he called a “black arm band” view of history.
The stories of Isreal is both older and much younger than Australia’s. Australia has many histories, some are contained in the two hundred years old and others that span over sixty thousand; many of the histories are lost and many are known to only a few. I believe Australia will one day achieve reconciliation for its people and its histories.
Isreal likewise has many histories. It has a history some of some sixty years as a nation state or in your words a Jewish homeland. It also has the history of all the people who occupy its land regardless of religion or state surely it is a homeland for these people too.
Where is Israel’s reconciliation to found? The continued use of the language and action of colonial imperialism – settlement, occupation and territorial governement will not premote reconciliation.
Yes, it is war. War is the pathology of a conflicted state/s. Of course you must defend your people, It is more than merely defense? Why do you have to defend yourself? Surely being at war implies psychological and behavioural dysfunction be it individual or collective.
Don’t be put out! It is not judgement it is observation. Humanity and societies the world over are dysfunctional, just more extreme and obvious in some.
Do you have insights to the normality of the psychology of the conflict?
Great site Eyolf. I have been using the Dylan tabs for a couple of years; the tunings and tabs you provide are great.
I have not really checked your blog prior to the other day and look forward to tracking it and contributing more in the future.
@greg: looking forward to it! And thanks for your contributions to the discussion. I have a paper to prepare for tomorrow, so I don’t have time to sit down and write extended comments right now, but I’ll be back.
Dear Mr. Østrem
I have been using your Dylan site for years now, and found it a real important site to all those who appreciate modern culture, spirit and music.
You can imagine how shocked I was to meet your ‘Access denied’ message,
And its attitude, telling me I’m not good enough to use it anymore being
Part of the wrong nation who is “demonstrating absurd inhumanity in its actions” …
Well, I’m not a nationalist, and I never vote (certainty not for Natniaho), and yet
I find it necessary to explain to you how wrong sometimes right can be.
You see, your action is violent too, and it’s a prejudgment derived by anger.
I am, my self, against the blockade on Gaza, understanding it is not an acceptable solution
As I’m against any other sort of violence (including bombing my town with missiles,or kidnapping and jihad terror attacks)
But let me tell you sir,
Life in the Middle East is far more complicated to be judged from where you are,
You don’t see all the facts; you do not understand the amount of hate, Suspiciousness, Religious Fanaticism and ignorance on both sides.
You are not aware to how the peace activists
Are being used by fanatics who have nothing to do with human rights the way you see them.
By your truly good will to support the poor people in Gaza, you end up supporting those who Wants to put this place on flames, and that their goal is war and death.
Gandhi said: an eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind.
Your boycott is working Against all sides, separating between us, the people, sane people on the two sides, and pushing us into the hands of those who cultivate fear And hatred.
music bring people together, that is its holly purpose, and should never
be chained to politics.
I call you to think again about your action and its implications, while trying to ignore all the brainwash Of the media giving a naive picture of good vs evil.
May this little land know better days.
Peace.
Omer
@BR:
That not factual at all. International waters had nothing to do with- the ship was trying to breach a blockade- so stopping it is justifiable. Look at the link I provided. The soldiers borded themselves in order to *minimize* casualties- Israel could torpedo the ship (I wonder, North Korea did just that, killed 46 and didn’t even get a slap on the wrist), or could tow it forcefully, disable it’s engine and leave it stranded in the middle of the sea. The terrorists on board initiated the violence.
The fact that the soldiers managed to kill only 9 violent rioters among dozens while their friends are brutally beaten is amazing to me.
@ Eyolf
It seems that Heiner is right and I don’t find the link claiming the restaurant is a spoof. It even appears on Lonely Planet. There is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. That doesn’t mean economic situation is good, but I guess that’s what you get when you elect religious terrorist nuts as your leader. meanwhile, GDP growth was 8% (!) in the west bank just last year
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/08/hamas-taxes-gaza
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7806209/Dispatch-Just-how-hungry-is-Gaza.html
@greg
reconciliation would be great, when we get to a point we’re 200 years after we made peace, if that’s possible. RIght now it’s hard, taking into account the fact that Palestinian leaders deny Israel’s right to even exist. the control Israel exerts over the PA is for defense and lack of other possibility.
The use of the term “colonial imperialism” is basically propaganda. If you were moving to Perth, would you be “colonizing”?
As for psychological pathology:
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=The+Day+of+Judgement+will+not+come+about+until+Muslims+fight+the+Jews
(I’m not posting a direct link so you can pick for yourself)
@omer: How exactly is my “action violent too”? And what do you know about my “prejudgement” and “anger”?
@oren: I didn’t say the restaurant itself is spoof, but its menu, which has indeed been exposed as a fabrication by the government Press Office.
Dear Mr. Østrem
I know about your anger because you open your post by mentioning it.
i say it is a prejudgement, because I believe you never been to Israel or Gaza strip. Am I wrong?
now how come i Accuse you for being violent?
Look.
Denying me from Dylan’s cultural work while discriminating me for my origin,
Based on the assumption you are more moral then I am, there for in a position to judge me, is a very violent and arrogant action.
Such generalization is assaulting me as a private person.
I can promise you this: the Israeli government And the IDF are not interested in Dylan’s chords.
So, don’t fear if you hear a foreign sound to your ear..
It’s alright, Eyolf, I’m only sighing.
> I know about your anger because you open your post by mentioning it.
> i say it is a prejudgement, because I believe you never been to Israel or Gaza strip. Am I wrong?
You claim much more than that by tying the three things together: you’re saying that my action is a prejudgement derived by anger. FYI, my action was something quite separate from the blog post, and done after much deliberation and not in a state of anger.
> now how come i Accuse you for being violent?
> Look.
> Denying me from Dylan’s cultural work while discriminating me for my origin,
I’m neither: you have full access to Dylan’s cultural work, and it’s not your origin but your country and the people that you — despite all the reasonable and sensible things you say — allow to represent you, and who perform crimes which are detestable to me, that i react against.
> Based on the assumption you are more moral then I am, there for in a position to judge me, is a very violent and arrogant action.
I make no such assumption, I just decide for myself who I want to communicate and share with. That is not an act of violence, and to call it so is to distort reality.
> Such generalization is assaulting me as a private person.
No, it’s challenging you — not assaulting you.
to Omer
try voting and stop turning your back on the actions of your government. I didn’t vote for them because I don’t vote doesn’t wash. Be counted!
To Oren,
if I want to move to Perth I can. If I want to move to the land owned and controlled by indigenous people in my country (there are still some and in some they retain tribal law too) then I need their permission. If I I take bulldozers to any land to develop it then I need clearence from all stakeholders govt, private and native title holders if it has been established (common law and property rights have a place in a just society). If I and all the Irish decendants in Australia want to return to Ireland and set up a new state inside it borbers that would be colonisation.
I understand that the Arab world and Hamas have difficulty in or recognise the legitimacy of Isreal as a state. I structured my arguement for the purpose of eliciting that response from you. It is a core part of the deadlock. It is part of the frozen mindset on both sides of the fence. Isreal will not achieve any piece until it recognises that perhaps it is not a legitimate state in its current form and that if it wants to be regarded as legitamate may require comprehenive change.
I can’t imagine Isreal surviving a to hundred year road to reconcilliation. The difficult thing will be changing in a dispute ruled by dogma. Palestine (hamas) doesn’t recognise Isreal as legitimate, Does Isreal recognise the legitamacy of Palestine as state?
‘The Arab minority in Israel recieves equal and full citizen rights.’
Not quite true. Arabs within Israel have no right to reside in the state with a partner who is from the West Bank or Gaza. Racist much?
‘international waters had nothing to do with- the ship was trying to breach a blockade- so stopping it is justifiable.’
also incorrect. israel likes to pretend that they can justify their actions under the san remo manual on international law applicable to armed conflicts at sea. they can’t. the blockade no longer has any legal OR moral basis because israel unilaterally declared a ceasefire in january of 2009, which means that they’re not engaged in armed conflict with Hamas, so they have no right to continue the blockade and institute actions like the commandeering of the flotilla.
again and again israel uses international law to legitimate its acts, but when it is asked to be judged by those very same standards, it cries victimhood.
@ Eyolf:
I say your action is based on not knowing the facts. All your information about the situation is been received from a very one-sided media,
and I can ensure you with hand on heart you are being manipulated Badly.
It is my promise to you that had you visited here seeing things as they are you would speak differently. Israel is no saint, BUT certainly not the murderous evil force you are shown on television.
I say your action is violent because it is discriminating people based NOT on who they are But on what you think about them,
without ever meeting them, just base on rumors an TV.
By this action you are contributing to the darkness in the world.
It is pure prejudice in a mask of human rights. sorry.
It is very easy to live in Europe, far from the crazy middle east, and think you can tell who is right based on what you see on tv, but you only see what they want you to see, being misled, on purpose by those who propagate hate.
so, what i say is that your action is only spreading the hate, putting a wall between people, and not serving your goal at all.
And you saying had I vote better things would be different clearly shows how little you understand the reality in the middle east.
@ Greg:
you are naive. governments make the problem. the only solution will come from the people. We must stop buying the bullshit governments and newspapers sell
Us and start trying to live with each other as one race.
This boycott of yours is pulling as away from our goal.
there are many ways to help, fighting fire with fire is not one of them.
i will repeat Gandhi’s saying: an eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind.
may peace come upon this land
Eyolf, don’t be ridiculous.
You call Israel a fascist government, meanwhile you are blocking Israelis from expressing themselves and their love of Dylan.
Please look at both sides of the story, and realize your boycott is only making things worse.
@mark:
The constraint is not race-based, but origin-based- Israel will not give citizenship by marriage if the spouse is from the Palestinian authority, an entity we are in armed conflict with. There’s no rule precluding marrying an Egyptian and her/him coming to Israel. The other stuff you said just don’t make sense to me- the unilateral ceasefire, which is not even relevant anymore, deals with withdrawing forces, and not and end to any armed conflict (Hamas fired rockets at my hometown just a week before the flotilla incident)
@ Greg:
Wherever Israelis settle- the land is controlled and owned by Israeli, and not by palestinains. Israel doesn’t impose restrictions on it’s citizens, whether Jewish or Arab, to live and settle anywhere in Israeli controlled areas (i.e- not under PA control). On the other hand, Obama and the PA expect the whole west bank to be free of Jews.
BTW- it is somwhat implicit in your argument that somehow Palestinian Arab are “indigenous” and Jews are not. That is again propaganda- firstly, because the Hebrew/Jewish people lived in Israel originally, second because there has been a Jewish population in Israel throughout the exile, and third, because alot of “Palestinian” Arabs are immigrant by themselves- Yasser Araffat for instance, is an Egyptian.
Israel never opposed founding of an Arab state on part of the land of Israel- and it says so even in the Israeli declaration of independance. furthermore- Israel could not have prevented it even if they wanted to in 1948. Actually, it was the other Arab countries (Jordan, Egypt) that conquered and occupied the areas meant for another independant Arab state.
I, and vast majority of Israelis, don’t oppose about them having a state of their own, as long as they acknowledge our right. Why should we, and why should I care what they do?
For Hamas, there is nothing Israel can do to be ‘legitimate’, than to cease to exist.
I didn’t notice until now, as at the beginning I didn’t understand Omer’s comment about the ‘Access Denied’ message.
You have no moral highground over here, Eyolf. You’re the bully quite frankly. You’re indiscriminately boycotting, and for a reason you apparently know very little about, and are fed by media catch phrases.
One example being that Gaza’s internet infrastructure actually goes though Israel.
np, spread the hate. I got the message, and I won’t be visiting here anymore. I thought this might be a good place to conversate and reason with reasonable adults, but I was wrong.
The Wiesel doctrine of millennial and unique suffering has slammed headfirst into the climax of historical irrational anti-Semitism: WE CAN’T READ DYLAN TABS ANYMORE, OH NO. :(
You’re not winning any arguments, Oren. You’re not making us hop to the edge of our seats and nervously chew our nails. You’re being weathered. We’re nodding and smiling and edging past you and trying to get to the bathroom.
Why?
Because you’re lying, Oren, and no one likes to see that. You’re outright and blatantly lying and, whenever we call you on those lies, you end up saying “oh, the UN isn’t a reliable source anymore”, “oh, AI isn’t a reliable source anymore”, “eyewitness accounts? More like TERRORIST accounts, am I right.”
As as a religious man, I’m not going to debate the various negative-mitvahs that flow forth from NOT allowing charity, or actively deferring another’s act of chesed; I’m not going to tell you that you’re wrong, or that Israel’s wrong in their metaphysical logic. In many ways, I imagine you already know they’re wrong. As I wrote above, this is more of a philosophical issue than it ever was a historical one – if the Gaza restraunt menu was a fake before, you could not doubt it’s reality now. You have to say that they are not starving, in the face of the rest of the world. The only people that say that there is no shortage in Gaza are the Israelis. To believe this you must actively make the choice to ignore an enormous amount of information.
There was a holocaust survivor on the Freedom Flotilla. Was he, too, a terrorist?
Your suffering is not unique. It is no different than the suffering of the Palestinians, of the Iraqis. You have no reason to feel special. Nine people were murdered by the state for offering charity. You are not special for endorsing their deaths.
As for the chords,
http://heiner.github.com/dylanchords/
is one of the many places to see them. Eyolf knows they are all over the internet; these ‘mirrors’ are actually there by intent as a failsafe way to access the chords when this cease and and desist thing was going on.
All I said about the restaurant was “They receive enough to be able to have Restaurants like this.” Quite frankly, it doesn’t freaking matter where that link comes from. All that matters is where it goes to — and if that information there is correct. Disbelieving truth because it is said by the wrong mouth is only hurting oneself.
Indeed, read the statistics from the Israeli ministry of foreign affairs about the humanitarian aid going into Gaza. Of course, you don’t have to believe it. I just happen to do so.
to Oren,
I am not supportive of boycotting anyones expression and feel sure that Eyolf grief and dismay at the actions of the IDF will subside. I feel too, that he will not use a law of return to discriminate against you coming back experiencing his fabulous site and engaging in discourse. Discourse not disagreement educate us don’t feed us dogma.
to omer
Are you on the street? are you actioning change? are you challenging the convictions of those around you and championing change? tell us what the people doing and i know there are wonderful things that peopel of Isreal do? The likes of Daniel Barenboim building bridges and community.
I am not firing rockets of judgement. I am trying to hold up a mirror. You too are not happy with the actions of you government that is clear. The world is becoming frustrated with Isreal. For many years Isreal convinced the world that the PLO were the bad guys that Saeb Eriqat and Araffat were the enemies of all democacy. In working so hard to weaken these enemies isreal created far more and is now running out of friends. What we see from side of the world is country whose greatest leaders have been sacrificed.
Your faith talks of being “or la goyeem” yet you reap savagary like any other nation state. It has become a Jewish state not a homeland.
“There was a holocaust survivor on the Freedom Flotilla. Was he, too, a terrorist?”
No, just an old fool. It seems like half the passengers of these “aid ships” were. The other half cannot claim such easy excuses. (Including the post-communist German MPs on that ship. Really peace-loving people who’d never build any wall!)
to greg:
just for the Just for the record:
Israel and its government are as moral and humanitarian as any other European country(or Ausi).
You would not be any better if you faced the challenges we face day by day.
Actually you weren’t. many examples in history prove it well.
So please do not preach us…
And last thing:
Hamas says in every opportunity they want to exterminate the state of Israel.
Now try to negotiate with this kind folks. Gilad Shalit has not seen the light of day for almost 4 years, Never had a visit from red-cross or UN, is it humanitarian? Shooting out of schools and using kids as human shield is humanitarian?
Please, I would be the first to say we must end the armed conflict
And the occupation, but it is not as simple as you imagine it.
It is easy to speak from your comfortable and secured countries. Come here and try to help reducing the amount of hate on both sides if you
Really want to help. Cultural boycott on Israel is sourly serving the other way.
May there be peace.
here. see what i mean? they do it to make you think whatever they want you to think.
we are being manipulated by the media
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/36489_Another_Cropped_Reuters_Photo_Deletes_Another_Knife_-_And_a_Pool_of_Blood
You can jerk off to those pictures as much as you like; they don’t change the fact that these are pictures of heavily armed, professionally trained pirates who had just attacked and boarded a civilian ship in international waters (killing nine civilians in the process). In that light, it ought to be a completely irrelevant question, and not “a huge controversy over whether the activists were armed,” as one of the captions says in the link that you so generously provided. What is entirely uncontroversial is that the aggressors were armed to the hilt. Let’s start there, shall we?
I don’t advocate stabbing pirates, but I’d have been pretty pissed off myself had I been dragged out of bed by one of them.
On a general note: You’ve made your point; repeating it doesn’t make it more valid.
to Eyolf:
you know what. i changed my mind. please keep your boycott.
i really don’t want anything to do with an idiot like you.
Hi there everyone, I’d like to say a few things.
First off, thank you Eyolf for your website. I have used the Dylanchords many times and they are always a very reliable resource to help me play some of the best songs I ever have the opportunity to attempt play.
Secondly, thank you everyone for having this discussion. I truly feel like I’ve grown a little by seeing the back and forth. And though I definitely can sense the tension, and there was definitely some steam blowing out here and there – honestly this was one of the more civil discussions I’ve read in either the recent flotilla incident or in the past regarding Israel/Palestine.
And I appreciate how I found it. I appreciate swinging by the Dylanchords and being linked to a discussion about an powerful item of human concern. I think for most people, all it takes is to hear the stories of Israel and Palestine to be inspired to think: “There’s got to be a better way.”
Of course, I am not an activist, nor am I a leader. I do not know what my role is in this world, and how I can make it better for the places where it is most difficult. But I want to try, and I want to talk about it. So I thank you again everyone who has participated in this discussion.
And I thank our host Eyolf, who has selflessly shared his website for so long.
-David
And so it seems the conversation has come to grinding hault.
A defensive stonewalling of the discourse. No room for negotiation there then. When the discourse stops war begins.
Omer, Oren, and all other Israelis. The men is deaf. Stop trying to convince this guy with facts. He is has other hidden motives to hate us.
Just got to reading a few of the comments here – it seems to me that Eyolf has his mind made up and neither reasoning or the facts will convince him otherwise, which is a shame. After his last offensive comment all I can say is that he doesn’t seem someone worth wasting time on having an adult conversation with, at least not on these matters, and wish him the best with his Dylan site. I certainly won’t miss it.
Don’t let the real facts confuse you….
We realy sorry that the Israeli soliders did not let the terrorist on the ship to stab them to death… and that Israel don’t let the Hamas to gather weapon freely .
BTW – all the shipment on the ‘peace’ delivery ships (all of them) are 25% of the trades that enter the Gazza strip – daily…
I truely sorry (honestly) for the suffer of the people of Gazza but this is caused by the Hamas that rule the Gaza strip.
Hey, lets talk about Dylan.
If Israel is such a bad place, why did Dylan himself (age 30) want to move and become a member of Kibbutz Ein Dor in Israel ? (he was not accepted by the members of the Kibbutz)
let’s see what Dylan thinks:
Neighborhood Bully
Well, the neighborhood bully, he’s just one man
His enemies say he’s on their land
They got him outnumbered about a million to one
He got no place to escape to, no place to run
He’s the neighborhood bully
The neighborhood bully just lives to survive
He’s criticized and condemned for being alive
He’s not supposed to fight back, he’s supposed to have thick skin
He’s supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in
He’s the neighborhood bully
The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land
He’s wandered the earth an exiled man
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn
He’s always on trial for just being born
He’s the neighborhood bully
Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad
The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad
He’s the neighborhood bully
Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
That he’ll live by the rules that the world makes for him
’Cause there’s a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac
He’s the neighborhood bully
He got no allies to really speak of
What he gets he must pay for, he don’t get it out of love
He buys obsolete weapons and he won’t be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side
He’s the neighborhood bully
Well, he’s surrounded by pacifists who all want peace
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease
Now, they wouldn’t hurt a fly. To hurt one they would weep
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep
He’s the neighborhood bully
Every empire that’s enslaved him is gone
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon
He’s made a garden of paradise in the desert sand
In bed with nobody, under no one’s command
He’s the neighborhood bully
Now his holiest books have been trampled upon
No contract he signed was worth what it was written on
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health
He’s the neighborhood bully
What’s anybody indebted to him for?
Nothin’, they say. He just likes to cause war
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed
He’s the neighborhood bully
What has he done to wear so many scars?
Does he change the course of rivers? Does he pollute the moon and stars?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill
Running out the clock, time standing still
Neighborhood bully
Eyolf Østrem, I wonder what your idol, Bob Dylan (born Jewish) has to say about people like you. It doesn’t matter what your read or see, you will rest until you’ll the Jewish state disappear. Who cares about 30,000 rockets were launched from Gaza to south of Israel? The state of Israel is a miracle that survives endless attack from its Arabs neighbours, but who cares? I would just like to remind you that Hilter is dead, that’s it, he won’t be back, you will need to get along without him.
Dear Eyolf,
It has already been said that Israel will lose any battle in the media – only because the western world is so out of touch with reality, that any incident involving “blood thirsty pirates” versus “helpless peacenik civilians” will be taken at face value.
If I were living in Sweden, with neighbors like Norway, Finland and Denmark, I too would probably be out of touch with the real world, assuming that everyone who has internet must be like me.
However, the still-fledgling state of Israel has been harassed from its first day until the present. We still live in survival mode. Any European state would have acted the same or worse – we have seen what “restraint” was shown in the world wars. Sweden most particularly disgusted me for not having the guts to take a side, but profiting from the death of millions.
Dear friend, I do not expect you are too concerned with the tens of thousands (yes, 10,000’s) of rockets shot from Gaza into Israeli civilian cities. That would require you of being informed. But, I do assume that your boycott is directed against Turkey for their genocide of 1.5 million Armenians and the ongoing slaughter of Kurds (their latest air attack on the Kurds only last week). Also, I am sure your outrage is directed towards the 600 that were recently slaughtered in Darfur. Last, I am sure that your pain extends to the dozens killed each week in the name of Allah throughout the Middle East.
We in Israel are not happy to be living like this – under constant attack and threat of annihilation – the spoken dream and goal of our neighbors from day 1. I would like nothing more that returning Gaza and the west bank to their rightful owners (i.e., Egypt and Jordan) but these countries will not have anything to do with their “brothers” (they are smarter than us and we agreed to accept this in the name of peace with these countries). I would wish that the Palestinians could actually govern themselves, but that is not yet possible – believe me I would like nothing more than to build a great big wall, separating us from them for 2-3 generations and then tearing the wall down to a peaceful future but that too is not possible. The Islam world will always find a way and reason to attack us.
So, we Jews continue to suffer, making the best we can of our situation, hoping but not really expecting the world, made of people like you, to really understand what is going on. Continue to believe that soldiers armed with paintball guns are better equipped that knives and metal pipes. That one commando can actually fend against 20 men with his bare hands. The ships could have been sunk, fired upon from gunship, etc. But what did “bloodthirsty” Israel do – send them in with paintguns and small firearms as backup – several of which were taken from them by the “peaceful mob”, and used until no other option was left but self defense.
One general last comment if your outrage allows – if the commandoes were so fearsome why try to attack them? I know I wouldn’t. And hundreds of the real peaceniks knew that and accepted the flotilla for what it was meant to be – propaganda.
David ISRAEL June 8th, 2010 at 4:53 pm Says:
David, you’re waisting your time on this guy with your long rational explanation.Him and his alike, know the facts. Have you seen “Dr. Starnglove”? this is exactly the same, he can’t stop keeping his arm from rising. The irony is that those ‘peace activists’ and the ‘rightious’ cannot distinguish between government and ordinary citizens, I mean…hmmm….they can….but not when it relates to the Jewish state (although he is mumbling something regarding ‘next time when you vote….” ), as if it’s doable from one day to another….and I heard that this guy is a Phd for Music.
Joseph Goebbels could not express it better than you, Mr. Eyolf Østrem.
As a son of a Holocaust survivor, that was persecuted in Europe AFTER the WW2, by polish anti-Semites than wanted to finish the Nazi job of the final solution, I can tell you that nothing has changed in Europe. You Europeans, backed by your new Islamo-Nazi collaborators, are making once again preparations for the next final solution of the Jewish Problem. This time you have us Jews concentrated in one ghetto called Israel instead many ghettoes in east Europe back then, and the leader of Hezbollah believes this will make your job easier. Well, I think this time your job will be harder to accomplish. I suggest you read again the exact words of Dylan’s song in your header.
The blocking of site from of Israel is just another example of Nazi tactics. That’s how the process of exterminating begins.
Eyolf,
I apologize that I’m going to write mostly *about you* to the fellow Israelis here. I acknowledge that it is somewhat impolite, but we find hard to converse to you in your current (self-described) enraged state.
We should understand where he comes from. He comes from the moral high ground that so many european left-leaning intellectuals come. They supported Stalin in the fifties, Mao in the Sixties, Pol-Pot in the seventies, fought American military bases in Europe (that protected *them* from the Soviet Empire) and generally believe that violence is unjustified in any way by the “tribe” they belong to, that is the Western civilization.
They see the Islamic fundamentalist development via some neo-marxist and neo-colonial interpretation, in that the subjugated and backwards Islamic countries just try to redress their historic grievances caused by the West.
They cannot understand the march of the radical Islam as anything else than the fault of the West. When the West will “behave” and will purge from their midst those Israelis and their American paymasters there will be finally Peace with a big P. Unfortunately, this is part of the same romantic fallacy to try to build a better and a “purer” world as those ideas that made the 20th century the bloodiest century in Europe’s existence.
They see Israel as part of the Western civilization. If they would accept that Israel *has* to fight for its existence, this would mean that the rest of the West *might have* to fight as well in order to maintain its culture, freedoms and perhaps its independence. This is something they cannot accept; not after the 20th century wars. Therefore Israel challenges their worldview so badly that they have to demonize it and see it as “all bad”, like as in killing the messenger. The US is not so far off as well, and Obama provides some (very) temporary relief.
If Israel would not be seen as part of the west, nothing in Israel would threaten them. A good example is really Gaza, that is officialy blockaded by Egypt *completely* – at least until the last few days. Most of the food, electricity, water and medical supplies come from the “blockading” Israel. But, nowhere is Egypt mentioned as a factor in the “humanitarian holocaust” (sic) that exists in Gaza.
Indeed, a huge and incommensurate amount of agression and suffering exists in the non-western world, and this is acquiesced as being “natural” or at most to be frown upon in despair and helplessness.
So, if I may paraphrase, first they came for the Israelis, then they came for the moderate Muslims, then they came for the Americans – and during all this time the European left kept its high moral ground, and do not notice how the rope tightens around their neck, how demography works and soon a majority of newborns in Europe will be of Islamic heritage, and how those newborns, when grown up will want to impose a different culture, distinctly illiberal. By then it will be too late.
As always, perhaps the Americans will save them this time also. But why should they ?
Long Live the United Islamic Europe, The Western Province of The Great Caliphate !
So, is it clear now why the blindness is soothing for the moment ?
@Dan
I was not aware of this song. It’s brilliant.
I must say, though – without anyone listening – that this pair, BiBaraq are sickening idiots. How did they get accepted in sayeret matkal ?
One more brilliant song writer:
“Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace ”
I’ll buy these words to live by.
Will the Muslims in this region buy them also?
I don’t think so
First of all, let me make some things clear.
There is no such thing called “Palestinians”. Palestine is the old name of the area which includes Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. So, if you want to make a country called “Palestine”, it should include all those areas as well.
Oh, we can’t include them, because they belong to their fellow Arabs from Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Israel (Israeli-Arabs). Where did all those Arabs come from? Saudi-Arabia of course (Arabs, like, duh). Israel was born in 1948, and its Arab neighbors decided to conquer Israel. Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt didn’t succeed to make it. They lost the war they started, and they are angry at us until now. Once they have a chance, they will conquer the Israeli land.
Oh, and the Arab nations also lost some ground, just like you do in regular wars. The same way the USA defeated Mexico and received Southern California, Texas and Arizona, and the same way Russia got some islands from Japan, that’s how Israel received the rest of their lands, both in 48 and in 67. So if you want to make “justice”, give each country (all over Earth) its original lands back. Is it actually possible?
Since those lands were never claimed back by their origin countries, Gaza is part of Israel, now and then. Needless to say that “Palestine” as a country doesn’t exist, hence there is no such thing as “Palestinians”, but Arabs who live in Gaza.
Now that we made that clear, we can go on.
Before you, Eyolf, talk about us, you should put into the equation:
1) The wars and the thousands of missiles we received from Lebanon and Gaza and still receive from Gaza. No other country would let that happen. In other places, it would end immediately with thousands of people killed from the side that shot the missiles. Do you remember V-1 and V-2 missiles from Nazi Germany straight to London, killing innocent people? This is exactly the same.
2) The hate, the ignorance and the dis-information about Israel, Israelis and Israeli-Jews.
3) The fact that we have a strong army. They actually envy us, believe it or not.
4) The security that we want for our country and people. Believe it or not, we have no wish to conquer other countries. We want to stay in the same place. This is our place. As long as others don’t want it to happen, we will have to defend ourselves.
Before you blame us, Eyolf, take a look at yourself and ask yourself how you can stop the Islamic hate.
Once a 9/11 happen in your place, you will start thinking the same way.
Happy thinking,
Moshe.